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Report 209
Report #209 Skillset: Druidry Skill: Cudgel Org: Ninjakari Status: Completed Jul 2009 Furies' Decision: Will check summon resistance. Problem: Raise cudgel is an indiscriminate room wide ability that stuns an entire group and moves them into trees. When combined with zero power treebane (which hits your entire enemy list and costs 0p), it allows a druid to very easily separate an entire group continuously. Furthermore, multiple druids can keep raising and stunning anyone on the ground while a group of allies in trees (who are not impacted) are able to attack during a lengthy multiple person stun. 0 R: 0 Solution #1: Raise cudgel should be a targeted ability like Geomancer twirl staff. This would not impact druids 1-on-1, but it would deal with the mass separation in group combat. 0 R: 0 Solution #2: Raise cudgel should check summoning resistance. While less favorable, this ability is forced movement and it should be subject to force movement consequences given it hits an entire room (like currents, whirlpool, rad rune, etc). 0 R: 0 Solution #3: Player Comments: ---on 7/23 @ 23:37 writes: While I disagree, I believe that Solution #2 would be more favorable. You can't compare Geo Staff Twirl to Raise Cudgel, honestly. I'm in favour of Solution #2 if it comes down to it, the stun should remain whether the target is moved or not, however. Geo Staff Twirl's aff will always hit regardless, Raise Cudgel should be given the same privledge. ---on 7/24 @ 00:00 writes: Affixing a comment from Shuyin, "Group Cudgel could have a power cost on it similar to Group Ecto. 1 vs 1 Druid Cudgel Raise will cost no power, Group Cudgel could cost 2-3p." I also agree with this solution. ---on 7/24 @ 00:04 writes: I think both solutions seem all right. It is a bit ridiculous that one person can mess groups up that badly...sort of similar to the carcer argument... Solution 3 could be something like what happened to Contagion. Raise cudgel could be free versus 1 person, cost more power for 3 people, and a lot of power for an entire room. ---on 7/24 @ 00:05 writes: I meant to say ectoplasm, not contagion. ---on 7/24 @ 00:07 writes: I'd be in favour of Raise Cudgel costing 3p for an entire room. Any more than that is pretty outrageous. ---on 7/24 @ 00:09 writes: This being because it also effects the caster. ---on 7/24 @ 00:58 writes: It effects the caster in a good way. heh ---on 7/24 @ 01:35 writes: Cudgel is not comparable to ectoplasm or even pre ectoplasm because ectoplasm only affected enemies. cudgel will stun and raise all persons in a room. Not only that, but the equilibrium on it is long enough while the stun is short enough that the people raised can easily leave. On the other hand, should a single druid raise cudgel on an enemy group, the enemy group need only all target the druid as soon as stun wears off. The druid will still be off equilibrium by that time. In addition to allies sitting in trees, the other group can also go through trees. It seems that the problem isn't actually raise cudgel, but it's treebane, which is already limited by the fact that only the demesne user may cast it on all unshielded enemies in a demesne for no power. If anything, add a small treebane demesne power. I also dislike many of these not affecting 1v1 arguments because most of Lusternia is group combat related. Team work wins combat. We can't simply nerf every good combination of attacks into the ground unless you wish group fighting to merely become a battle of group size and damage output rate. ---on 7/24 @ 05:08 writes: This change could go even further I believe and I am fully in favor of solution 1. Solution 2 just doesn't go far enough unless implemented with solution one so that you can do target without cost and untargetted for power cost. This is because a single druid can effectively stop avatar attacks by entering the room and doing raise cudgel to split the group up. Also, in a recent two vs one druid. A druid was able to effectively raise cudgel the two repeatedly, using the stun to allow affects to set in, then sap. Hexagram would never beat the druid, the two attackers would be lifted into trees, stunned, immediately climb down, and be restunned before they could even hexagram or just barely hexagram, only to fail and be back in the trees stunned again. Druids far too easy with their saplock which requires no strategy as long as they have demense effects up to do the rest, unlike mages who actively have to use some sense of skill to earn a kill. This change is well deserved and should be the start of many. ---on 7/24 @ 05:10 writes: And I would like to highlight that I said this was a two on one against the druid with both attempting to get the druid out, it was near impossible while fighting against druid raise cudgel stun. The druid died only by being crucified in their trees to stop their movement. ---on 7/24 @ 15:38 writes: Your information is false. The reason you keep getting stunned repeatedly is because your system makes you climb down repeatedly. Yes, you're naturally going to keep getting stunned. If you stay in the trees briefly and attack the Druid, you're in far better shape. You can also move and beckon them out and so forth. And sorry, Saplock is not as easy as you make it sound. I don't believe you have the ability to call it easy since you've never been a Druid or a Mage to my knowledge. ---on 7/24 @ 18:46 writes: Exactly what Nienla said and I find your comment hilarious as you make it sound like the druid won, when the druid still ended up dying. Oh no, this OP skill did -not- kill me so let's nerf it? ---on 7/24 @ 23:13 writes: I don't see a need for this change. ---on 7/24 @ 23:26 writes: "A single druid can effectively stop avatar attacks with this"? That's why you use Greater Pentagram. In fact, that's why you have used greater pentagram. A full minute to kill Avatars without -any- effective interference from defenders at all. Also: I really don't see why you need to auto climb down. You should only be climbing down based on situation. If there are two of you against a Druid, I'd hope that one of you can kick the Druid a bit if the other gets sapped, and the other can actually... cure it. Also, I've never seen a saplock that doesn't require strategy. Hartstone strategy is pretty darned easy with sticking a stagstomp in there after it, but it's still more than "sap" and hope the demesne ticks... ---on 7/25 @ 10:24 writes: Repeated stuns are less a matter of auto climbing down (I know my system doesn't on raise cudgel) and more a matter of 0p demesne wide treebane. A druid's allies can avoid the stun by waiting in the trees to beat the living daylights out of the stunned group that comes up, and really the difference between the stun time and the equilibrium cost on raise cudgel is at most 1 second. ---on 7/25 @ 10:30 writes: Btw, the single druid anti-avatar raid thing is a true story. Whole group gets stunned and pulled up, and then the first people to climb down or get blown out by wind instantly die to the full strength avatar (people in trees don't count for weakening). Greatpent serves as a counter, but not nearly a perfect one. It won't do you much good against a druid waiting in the trees at the avatar with perch/twirl cudgel so you can't get them down, and then he just raises cudgel and ends the raid (and that'll also knock out greatpent because it moves you). Wisp will also take out a greatpent since we're assuming trees here, and rad for that matter. ---on 7/25 @ 13:47 writes: ... there is -no- wind on Ethereal, Ceren. None whatsoever. You won't get blown down by wind. In fact, there is no wind anywhere off-Prime. Further, all of Glom's avatars (at least) are at points that will always be breakpoints if you wanted to kill Maeve, so even if it was demesned... well, trees can be stripped by Geos at will (not aquas, I don't really know why). Rad's an option, unless you have your GreatPenter just use pentagram... which, if you've got a decent raid group, only makes sense. The single-person GreatPent avatar thing is a true story as well. And yes, I will agree that the larger issue in group fight is the treebane part of it. ---on 7/25 @ 23:07 writes: I agree with Xenthos' comments above. There is no wind in trees. You may be getting knocked out by Sylph, if anything, but there is no natural wind outside of Prime. ---on 7/27 @ 07:21 writes: God damn, it must have been a sylph. Good call.